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Tantra4GayMen Podcast – Episode 10 – Is it wrong to be a Gay Man?

Transcript

  Hello and welcome to the Tantra for Gay Men podcast hosted by Jason and Ingo Tantra. Here we’re exploring spirituality and personal growth through the practice of Tantra, the body, energy and sex. 

Hello there and welcome to episode 10 of the Tantra for Gay Men podcast with me, Jason Tantra and my beautiful husband, Ingo Tantra. Today we’re talking about how is it wrong to be gay and actually, you know, for a large part of our community, we can kind of carry that idea around at a subconscious level that we’re wrong and we talk about that and then the conversation develops into how using sex as a spiritual practice, and also kind of the idea of love and truth, kind of like the conversation evolves into something super interesting, with some really beautiful insights towards the end of the podcast.

Also we talk about how you can train in tantra with Ingo and I online in our ashram, and you can get details of that at our website community. tantraforgaymen.  com. That’s community. tantraforgaymen.  com.  Gaymen. com. Okay. Enjoy the podcast.  Hello, beautiful Ingo. Hello, beautiful Jason. Would you believe we’ve made it here to episode 10?

Oh God, it’s been a journey, hasn’t it? It has. And today we are talking about the topic. Am I wrong? Am I wrong as a gay man? And I’m going to, it’s going to just  going to take me a little while just to unpack what I mean by that. Yeah. But I think it’s a really useful topic to talk about in the context of Tantra, sex, spirituality.

Yeah, so I’ll talk a little bit about that, but yeah, tell me how you are first. How are you doing?  I feel I’m feeling really good, but actually this yeah, this topic really excites me because I can remember so many, so many moments in, you know, in my life and also in many. In the life of many others that we have worked with, where this just came up like there is a sense of being wrong, a sense of not fitting in that can just lead to so many things.

And that’s why I’m really excited about this topic. And I’m particularly drawn to America, USA, where I think religion  has played.  And, you know, I just want to say up front, these are my personal ideas, personal remarks, they belong to me. But I’ve kind of seen the toxicity of religion, of how it’s made many hundreds of thousands of men who love men wrong. 

And I think that does something to the psyche. So my question was, am I wrong as a gay man? Let me just explain that first of all. So I believe that intrinsically in most men who love men and most gay men that we have met. over the 19 years of teaching. I feel that there’s often a background or a unconscious thing where we as men who love men feel wrong.

That somehow nature made a mistake and did something wrong and therefore I’m wrong and I’m wrong. You know, growing up, I think in early infant years, you know, feeling different, realizing that you’re not the same as you get out of infant into, you know, very, very early. I’m talking about the age of 10 or 11, knowing that you’re maybe attracted to men, attracted to same sex, beginning to realize that that’s not  necessarily how everybody else is.

And I also feel, for me, having a very strong Catholic upbringing, you know, and I sometimes feel a little bit ashamed naming this, it was only up until the age of 16 or 17, which by today’s standards is just horrific, that I Honestly, thought actually probably even up to the age of 18 that I realized that I was the I thought that I was the only man in the world that was gay.

I didn’t even know what I mean. Get gay was used at school as a Slang term as a way and I was always called gay. I was always picked on and bullied at school I will tell you I will tell you about my story later. But yeah, it’s interesting. It’s 16 is still quite early for me to came later, but later. Yeah, and and so I think that, you know, one, the education system I was in didn’t serve me in terms of not making me feel different.

And I’m going to touch on also a little bit of something else in a second. So I felt wrong all the way growing up. And then as I entered into adult life. I came out as I said, I think I’ve said in previous podcasts, six months before gay became popular. And so it was still in general society kind of frowned upon and we’re talking early 1990s.

You know, just before queer as folk came out on channel four, just before, you know, gay bars happened to be really amazing. It was still like, there was a shutter, there was, you know, security. It was still quite contentious to be gay, like, you know, in my first six months of coming out. So I think that, you know, we have, and, and, and I think it’s different today for younger people.

But actually, you know, different in places. I think it’s better in places. I certainly seeing the, I’m sorry to say this toxicity of religion in the USA. I don’t think it’s okay for everyone. I still think there’s many young men that are growing up feeling like they’re wrong, feeling that something else is, is, is bad.

And I also want to talk about here. You know, suicide, you know, male, male suicide, and that I sometimes wonder whether, you know, one of the contributing causes is not feeling okay to be yourself, not being yourself. And just as I say that topic, that’s where Tantra and spirituality starts knocking on the door. 

of different, different potentials. And before I step into that, I wanna, you know, talk about a few other things with you. Would you like to start with, like, your story with that? Or because as, as you are talking, I find this very fascinating because I’ve got a few things to say about this that go a little bit, you know, into my story.

Yes, no, say that, say that. So for me, you know, 

I grew up in an environment where,  There was just this is small town Germany in the  late 80s early 90s something like that where  The normativity was just so strong Everything was just hetero. I was never bullied or something like that  But there was just no no sense of what, what my sexuality actually could be, if that makes sense.

So I always, so, so my predominant feeling at that time was  something is wrong because I’m not, I’m not having these feelings. That everyone else is talking about, you know, when people are you know, I, I remember our first parties being organized. I was at a boy’s school, you know, parties with girls, a Catholic boy’s school, interestingly parties with girls, all of that.

And I’m supposed to be feeling this excitement and, and, and supposed to be feeling sexual and, and, and all of this, this, you know, teenage stuff going on.  And you know what? I just felt nothing.  I didn’t even,  it wasn’t even clear to me that I was gay, but I just felt nothing. So I thought for a very long time, there’s nothing to, because there was nothing to, to, to hook into, to, to, to, to explore. 

There was a while where I thought I was asexual. And it only came later very, very, very slowly that I realized what was going on. But my point is, is that by that point,  I was already something like 20. Wow. And by that point,  I had,  this is what I realized now by hindsight, I had already I had already missed a kind of almost a developmental stage, right?

Where you are a teenager you try things out you you you party You you know, who can you have sex with is it only with your your partners? Is it with friends? Is it this and that and? For me personally, later than  Tantra provided  This kind of community. It’s this community aspect of tantra Where I could try all of these things out where I could say.

Oh, wow, you know What is it like to have sex that feels casual?  What is it like to have sex that feels more connected? What does it like to feel, you know, remember our early times to have sex with friends? How does that feel different? Different when I fall in love  these kinds of questions. I just never had a playground for that in my early life.

And in that way, the, the, the early The early days of Tantra where for me, you know, I came to Tantra because of community in the beginning. As you know, dear, dear listeners, as you know, from from other podcasts, the the, the spiritual dimension came later, but I came to this for community to basically live that out and what an amazing community that was because I could, could live all of these things out within  a really a really connected way, but this is quite interesting.

And last thing I’m going to mention is just about a few days ago, I had a you know, I had a discovery call with someone,  you know, similar things came up. How  do I live the, the gay parts in myself because I’m not fitting in. Into the mainstream that’s out there and I feel that’s relevant for today.

Of course, there’s a huge gay scene But how about people who feel?  Gay and poly or feel queer or love both men and women want any kind of alternative Way of doing relationship and loving there is often I feel There’s  Like it was in Germany in the eighties for gays that exists today, the blueprints they are around, but they’re not around for anything that is more alternative than that, and that I can really feel how many, let’s say, queer people feel right.

There is a gay scene, there is a hetero scene, but where do, where do I find the blueprint and even more important, the, the the playground, right? The playground to, to try these things out. And for me, that was the community aspects of of Tantra. And when I talk to, you know, I’ve talked to people at our festival and all of that, and that’s, I think, you know, I think what makes tantra so unique with this, I think the community aspects are super important. 

However, where I want to go next is I want to look at pain. Yes, the pain of feeling wrong. And what I also want to talk about is the spirituality of that pain.  And I want to talk about the the, the  Where tantra comes in and and is like a a potential And also I wanted I wanted to also talk a little bit more about what it is to feel wrong so yeah, i’ve got a few things.

So the first thing I want to name we have seen in go in many retreats many thousands of men affected by  What I would call fundamentalist religion Yes, and what I mean by fundamentalist religion is when The teachings or the doctrine is stronger than the truth of the individual person. Yeah, I just want to repeat that because that’s really quite key.

So when the fundamental, like teachings or the doctrine, is stronger than the the truth of the individual. Now what I mean by that is,  in A number of the ways that religion is interpreted in the USA, the idea of same sex attraction and also other variations of, of of gender of attraction is polyamory of anything that is not mainstream, anything that doesn’t hit a heteronormative  idea.

Yeah. And also, you know, when I first was taught Catholic religion in my secondary school, the first thing that they told us in the first like week was that the only reason you would have sex is to reproduce. Yeah, they told us that. And for me, that was the time where the shutters just came down and I was like, this is not for me.

I feel really lucky. Because I feel like from the age of 11, you know, through my teenagers, whilst I went through some very extreme contrasts, you know, being bullied, not fitting in, feeling wrong you know, almost like feeling like I’m living on the edge of society in school, like the edge of society in school. 

I always had this deeper sense of truth in me.  That kind of believed that what was going on inside me can’t be wrong But I know for many men that they’ve not had that they’ve had times where they feel wrong and  You know for me here It’s like has God if we believe in a notion of God and again, that’s a whole other podcast  But you know  For those of you listening, believe in, in, in a God. 

For me, one of the things that we’re taught, whether through Christianity or through other religions or other ideas, is that the, the, that we were made perfect and we were made in the eyes of God.  If you open up, is it Genesis, that God made man and woman in the image of himself. So for me, just in really listening to that statement, all of the beautiful variations of human that has been created is all within the eyes of the image of God.

Now, when we talk about God in Tantra. For me, my, my interpretation of how we present this is that God isn’t somebody that sits on a cloud and goes away. And also God is not somebody that is different to me. He’s not another being, but actually that everything is God, you know, everything that every cell or every atom in me, in everything that I look out in, in the outside world and in, every person, that everything is God. 

I didn’t know if you wanted to maybe say something there about that. Well, I, I you know that we differ probably slightly in that Oh, do we? Yeah. In that I, oh, no in that. I personally, I personally don’t use the word the word God. Well, yes, but I, I, I see what you are, well, trying to say it’s, for me, it’s about finding something utterly beyond yourself.

Within yourself. Yes. Can be called God, but for what I’m political reason I personally wouldn’t use that word But I think it talks to too many people, but I’m using the word God. I would also use the word consciousness Yes, so that’s more like it. So I know so for me God and consciousness are one and the same Universal love you can call it many things.

Yeah, I’m not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah kind of in the ballpark for me What I know is Is when I’m in my meditation or when I’m in the height of tantric practice, I touch something that is beyond my mind that feels bigger than the me that is in this body. I feel a universal aspect of myself. I call that consciousness.

I call that the part of me that is God. Okay, when I teach tantric theory, this is What I call reality with a capital r do you want to say a little bit something about that? Not for the moment because that would really be going into tantric philosophy, but I would say Let me say let me let me say for this moment for for for for for the context of this particular podcast that Tantra is radically radically  ideological, I would even say that it’s almost non philosophical because it’s mainly practice. It’s practice, practice, practice, and the practice is always there to discover the infinite potential that is already in you.

That means  whatever we do, we, we, we, we never look outside. We always look inside completely. And you know, with this,  with the topic of this podcast.  The question would be, does our society, depending on where you live, really give us this freedom to really become what we already are inside? And of course it isn’t.

And that’s, that’s the issue, the spiritual issue that we are now talking about when people Well, just before we get there, I want to come back because I was going to make a killer point.  So I just want to go a step back in that if  If, if the idea is that we are all God, we are all consciousness, we are all from one source, one starlight, one, one field, and that actually there is no difference between us, we are the same,  and if God made us, whatever created us, consciousness created us, in, in his image, I’m quoting from the Bible, then Nobody can be wrong.

Everybody is perfect as they are within the truth of themselves. And I think that’s a really key, important thing to understand. That you were made in the image of consciousness, of truth, of God.  And that whatever you are, however you are, whatever you are is perfect. Just the way that you were plopped here on this planet as an individual, that you are one is it eight?

Are we now 8 billion global population? There are  8 billion different variations in human form. of God of consciousness, each with utterly unique perspectives on life, utterly unique characteristics, apart from your doppelgangers equally looking completely different variations in all kinds of different ways.

And I think what Tantra offers as a practice is you talked about love, universal love, yes, but it also talks about truth. And this is where I feel that being a gay man starts to become a spiritual journey when you start acknowledging or when you start to deal with the truth of who you are. Now, for me, working with gay men, People often perceive that just coming out is the first, is the only truth to deal with.

And for me, it is, it is not, it’s, it’s the first along a long, long journey. So like the first truth, you know, for, for typically for gay men, is this coming out is telling friends is telling family is telling work colleagues. It’s like coming out as a gay man. And, you know, I think there’s. You know, many cases where, you know, gay men have moved to the cities, you know, both in the USA, you know look at, you know, there’s, there’s like hot gay cities for me, you know, I was born in a small West country town.

I moved to the big city of Bristol to find other people like me to find community. And I think this taps into what you were saying, Ingo, about actually one of the reasons why people come to Tantra. is because it’s about love. It’s about interpreting sex in a slightly different way than, than say, how that happens for mainstream.

And it also kind of taps into a spiritual truth of who you are. And so I think it ticks a lot of boxes. And for me, just in this part, I just want to summarize. You know, for you dear listeners, I want you to sit with this meditation, this idea that you are perfect just as you are. And what I want you to do is close your eyes. 

Okay, just close your eyes. Take some deep breaths and just say to yourself, I’m perfect as I am. And notice what happens inside of you. And I’d encourage you listeners to leave some comments around what happens to you when you do that. Some of you are going to be like, Oh my god, I feel that truth, yes, I’m aligned with that, that’s beautiful.

And then the next some of you may be listening going, I’m saying it and I don’t believe it. And if you feel that saying it and not believing it, then for me, that is where there is some work to do. For me, I think that the first notion is, you know, seeing what comes up when you tell yourself you’re perfect as you are and see whether and see whether you believe it, see whether that feels true for you.

And if it doesn’t, then there’s some work to do because what you’ll probably find is there’s certain views and it can be quite shocking for some people to realise that actually, I don’t feel perfect as I am. And, you know, for me, I just bring compassion and love to that because that’s not an easy way to operate in the world.

And I think that a number of the men that come to our retreats are carrying that. And I think That can be such a strong influence. There’s so much pain. Like if you tell anybody that they’re wrong whether consciously or just in societal conditions of where you live, you know, that’s incredibly toxic.

It’s so toxic and go that, that men have left countries. You know, when, when we look at, you know refugees or immigrants,  as the word is sometimes used, people fleeing their country. One of the reasons people are fleeing their country is because they cannot be then there. And I know in our community, we’ve got several examples  of men that have fleed countries where you will be.

Like murdered or killed for being gay, you know, and it’s not been okay, or kicked, punched, spit upon, cut, harmed in some way, where just you being the truth of who you are is, is wrong. So I’m not surprised that we carry that.  I think we all own a part of this, of feeling wrong at some level. And for me, I think one of the things to undo on the beginning of a spiritual journey is to unlock that and actually re educate yourself, re hold yourself, that actually you are okay as you are.

So yes, this, I think the first fundamental thing is to make sure that we’re undoing that idea of being wrong because actually, for me, when you look at the world,  look how beautiful it is, and look how amazing it is, and look at all of the really amazing things on so many levels,  how can something that is so right, And so beautiful and so amazing.

Like look at nature. I don’t know about for you Ingo, but I sometimes get this sensation of falling in love with nature. I mean, you’ve been so beautiful in our marriage, taking me to amazing places that I’ve fallen in love with the world time and time again. You know, I remember motorbike rides through Rajasthan, passing camels, herds of goats, you desert villages, and just falling in love with, with, with, with, with existence, with the, with the world. 

And for me, I think one of the other tantric principles that you and I have really taught a lot is there is no greater truth than the truth of you. The truth of you, however you are, is the ultimate truth.  I think you just said three really important things here for Tantra, which is this out of this sense that you can’t really be yourself. 

It’s very often arises something that I would call the like silent desperation. Yes. Right. Yes. And many people come to that with us. Yes. And the, the, the, the counter proposition that Tantra makes is Exactly. This is what you just said to fall in love with existence. It’s something meditative. It’s something  it has a sensual, almost sexual element  to it.

It’s similar. The analogy is.  When you really, really connect sexually, time almost stops you, you, you, you, you are in total  immediacy and, and in total vulnerability with the moment, any moment that arises at least good sex in, in, in, in my definition is like that. And this is the thing, this is why Tantra has sex in It’s because it says  you can in general be With any moment of existence you can be like that and when you learn to  fall into that harmony with existence then the true self, the, the, the, the gateway to what you really are, which is infinity, infinite consciousness in the tantric philosophy, you know, will then open up.

And that’s, that’s the proposition that tantra makes, but it starts, as you said, you know, it starts at the silent desperation of whether it’s subtle for some, it’s subtle or whether for some have. For some it’s really really really hardcore if they have, you know experienced discrimination or something like that The the the feeling that you can’t be yourself.

So the first thing  Yeah that I found so powerful about this is  that Tantra opens up a playground and a room and a community  to to to to be who you are and The first step is be who you are in sex  Well, actually, no, well, I’ve got, this is where I was going next, because I think the first step is being truthful in terms of, and what I mean by truthful is living your truth as your identity.

But then I think your relationship with sex is so complex.  Like, you know, when I look at my first sexual experiences, they were really bad, really awful, really not, I didn’t enjoy them at all. And I would say most of the sex I had in my twenties, I didn’t really enjoy that much. much I had very stereotypical ideas of what I thought sex should be in my twenties, informed by porn informed by porn, because that’s all I had to go on.

And it wasn’t until I met Tantra that I realized that there was and also I’d had like lovemaking within a relationship experience. So I’d had like, you know, sexual experiences, lovemaking experiences. I hadn’t had tantra or tantric sex experiences that opened up a whole new platform. Yes. And I would also say that I think part of the journey in tantra is learning to to use sex.

We’ve said this before, sex is a metaphor of your life and actually how do you in sex enable yourself to have every type of possible sex that you can possibly think of, possibly conjure up, and kind of become the master of sex. Yes, or the navigator of the different types of sex that you choose to experience in life Yes, I would be interested what what you meant when you when you were saying no because that’s what’s the point I wanted to Okay, so are we passionately?

Well  for me at least For me, the way it happened in, in tantric training, you start with, with sex, sexual energy. That’s where you start. And from that, you, you, you, you go through experiences where all of a sudden you experience yourself as, wow, I didn’t know that my body could do this. Yes. Yes.  And it’s the nature of these tantric sex experience that they then infuse everything else that you are, so.

God, if my body can do this and I never thought this Was within the realm of my my own possibilities. Yeah, then  Oh God Have I have I limited myself? Have I been in a kind of of of mental prison?  And I think that’s that’s how For me at least it dawned on me that if these sexual experiences are possible, then it started dawning on me God I have actually been Grown up  not just feeling sexually wrong, but actually having absolutely no clue Who I can be not just in sex but as a person well, and I think  In your journey in Tantra, you know, one of the very first things you learn with us is what we call the ecstatic body Yes And I think that starts to show people that actually sex involves the whole of your body and it involves having sensations in the whole of your body and a lot of people Don’t even know that or don’t have that relationship with their body.

And actually it takes, you know, multiple times to practice the ecstatic body to be able, the analogy that I use is it’s like using a paint color chart, you know, like if you’re going to paint a room and you get these color charts and you have all these colors and in total, there’s probably, you know, like 3000 different colors  for me.

You know, one of the common things that I see is people arrive with Tantra with six colors in their palette and they learn to have 3, 000 and what I mean by 3, 000 3, 000 different recognitions of different sensations Different energies in the body. Yes, and then the next layer on from that is then around becoming like opening the gateways to orgasm or orgasmic.

So again, there’s like a re education because we believe, you know, typically, you know, men that arrive in Tantra, orgasm and ejaculation are closely together. But actually, you know, we teach people, there are seven different types of orgasm. We teach people physical, multiple orgasms versus what I call energetic field of multi orgasmic.

And the consequence of all these things is they start to change the perspective in which you see the world. We know, Ingo, that when people have a week with us on retreat, when they go back into their day to day world, their day to day world looks vastly different. Yes, I want I wanted to to to go deeper into this because I love what you said I loved how you used this analogy of  of a huge palette of Colors.

Yes, basically as as if you had only had one color in your life That’s what sex was meant to be like that’s what you thought it needs to be like. Otherwise, it is not Right. I, I’m, I’m,  I’m exaggerating, but when I, when I look at myself that’s how, you know, how I grew up. That’s what, that was my education.

Sex is one certain thing that happens only in a hetero context that only happens with your choosing one person for the rest of your life. That only happens in certain ways, certainly not kinky  and so on and so forth. Okay.  So that was.  That was that position. And then all of a sudden  it happens that you experience yourself, that it can be a thousand other things that no one had ever taught you about. 

And that  leads, you said you just tried to describe this, but I, I I call this the trickle up effect because.  That puts a stone in your shoe to think about yourself in a different way if this is possible  What else about myself? Do I not know? And and indeed then it starts to trickle up. What else can I be?

Am I really that limited?  Thing or entity that I think I am  If that limited thing that I think I am You Was one color.  What would it look like? to open up My own awareness to all the other things that I can be and that I am as well And and this points into this topic of infinite Consciousness already, but it’s a very I found it in tantra a very very very very concrete process that each time I I  realize that i’m more You Than what I thought in sex  like After each of those experiences in the weeks after it like trickled up and made me question Made me realize that this is not just in sex.

This is in everything in all of the other aspects of my life I can also be A lot more than I thought well, this was one of the other things I was gonna because once you master the things that i’m talking about sexually in tantra It can’t but help Ricochet exactly into your life. So we’ve seen people leave retreats go home and renegotiate relationships end relationships change jobs And for me all of this these things are for me pointing towards People Being the truth of who they are.

I always say Tantra is about love and about truth. Yeah, and truth without love is too harsh and love without truth is, is maybe not love just  eating hundreds of cream cakes one after another and you kind of need, the two need to sit in, in balance with each other. Mm hmm. Exactly.  So then for me, You know, if we kind of weave this all the way back to, am I wrong being gay?

No, you need to be the truth of yourself is the short version, but actually the truth is not just about your identity as somebody that, that loves other people. That’s kind of, sorry, that loves same sex people, but actually that’s just the first truth. There are many, many, many other truths. Some of them can be about, we’ve seen some of them are about relationship.

construct. Yes. Some of them are about jobs. Yes. Some of them are about how people are choosing to live.  And at any level, it doesn’t really matter from a spiritual perspective. It doesn’t matter what the what is, what, what is, what is important is, am I living the truth of who I am?  And also, how can I allow myself to fill in the color palette of 3, 000 other colors?

Where am I putting myself into experiences that I haven’t had before, that is enabling me to grow, is enabling me to have experiences? Outside of the periphery of, you know, my environment. And the reason why I think that’s important on a spiritual journey, the goal is awakening. The goal is enlightenment.

And again, whole other conversation about whether it is a goal or state, but it’s about the different realizations, the way that you expand, the way that you perceive world, the world, the way that you are in the world. It’s almost like what your,  the way that you’re looking on the world in your rosary.

Tinted spectacles. It’s like how that changes and evolves to that, to the highest truth, to the highest consciousness.  Yeah, I wanted I wanted to add to that, that there is a little trap sometimes, you know, when you, when you say, when someone says, I want to become the truth of who I am,  because you could, you could bring yourself into this trap.

Oh, I’m not good enough. So I need to learn this or make more money or have  You know look better or go to the gym more  Move to California or have the most gorgeous boyfriend in the world or whatever. Yes  But that is just functioning in all of the same paradox. What, what, what, what we are talking about is basically this, what Tantra does.

If you want to know the truth about yourself,  the, the, the conundrum you are stuck with is that in this paradigm,  you really don’t know this truth. That means anything that you can come up with From your perspective that you’ve got now Anything that you can come up with is within that same paradigm You you you you can’t just step out of that here tantra comes into the game because tantra says if we harness  Our sexual energy to almost go through these mind blowing Experiences, you know, you could say  People do similar things with psychedelics with meditation with all kinds of other things, but it needs to be a technique basically that helps you step into an aspect of yourself that you really really really didn’t know before and for me it’s This moment in tantra and this is something  This is something that haven’t we, we, we have,  we create these things consciously and again and again in our, especially in our deeper retreats, where we try to use these techniques in the way that they were intended to use tantra techniques.

That means bring people to these moments where  all of a sudden,  maybe just  for a glimpse of a moment.  They see themselves really from the outside and they realize that the paradigm that they’ve stuck been stuck in is just something that is It’s just Constructed and it’s just the part. It’s just the part.

It’s not the whole then if I can see this from the outside and see Infinity  then  Wow, you know then that has got consequences for my whole life. Then I can really  Say okay  the truth that I am Might be something completely beyond my little vantage point that I’ve got now and tantra uses this process This process of stepping, you know stepping again and again and again Out of your your your conditioned vantage point  And, and this is, this is part of our practice and this is what makes it so yeah, for many people so mind blowing and unique and really leads to people changing their lives in many ways.

As we’re getting towards the end of our podcast today, I guess the other thing I wanted to put onto the table is in this path of truth, one of the clues. To because some people go, Oh, what is it? I need to be working on. What is that? I need to be doing do I need to be doing this meditation this technique?

Yeah, one of the things I would I would invite you to look at is what is causing you suffering? Mm hmm. What is causing you pain? What is causing you unhappiness and Start from there  And it can be really, really difficult because often in life, you know, we are  kind of could be unconsciously living patterns and constructs of life that have been given to us by other people that have been given to us by society.

You know, like one of my biggest problems, and I’m, I’m, I might be getting lots of comments for this, but I look at England. Everybody is conditioned that they need to work ten, twelve hours a day from nine till five, Monday to Friday, to be acceptable to society.  And I’m like, well, who said that? You know, and I think one of the things I’m loving in this digital age is actually, you know, people that are younger than us and not buying into those constructs. 

You know, I think there’s more self employed, more entrepreneurs, more self, you know, when I look through my, my Instagram or my social media, everybody is talking about aspirational  lives, you know, travel the world, like it seems to be like the dream at the moment is to travel the world, isn’t it? And to do your work in many different exotic locations around the world.

For me, from a spiritual perspective, actually, it’s the same.  way that the soul is calling out for freedom, the soul is calling out to live its truth. And we’re just finding different, different ways of doing that. And I love that we are breaking down some of the constructs of how we should, should live.

Again. Again, coming back to this topic, the construct of. If I have this aspiration, I’m somehow wrong, right? It’s all of this question. I’m wrong. I’m conditioned into this thing that I’m wrong. Yes, and to live my life. Yes, I live my life in in in whatever is natural to me. Yes. And I think that what I also love as well, just to briefly mention, and again, I’ve said this before, I’m loving the different conversations of gender that have been happening, you know, certainly in my periphery in the last decade, we have so many different ways to identify ourselves, to describe ourselves.

And for me, it’s just another, a step towards being the truth of who we are.  And you know, for me, there’s so much more diversity than there’s ever been before. And I really celebrate that. And I think for me, Tantra unashamedly as a spiritual practice, using sex as the core foundation, it’s like, there is no greater truth than your sexual energy.

There is no greater truth than your, than the seed of your sex. It comes from the root of you. It comes from the essence of you. And nothing, it’s like any thoughts, any judgments, any constrictions, is all happening after the seed of that energy. And this is why I think Tantra uses sex as its core foundation, because Again, I’m gonna veer off into another slight topic.

I think one of the hardest things that we are yet to accept as humans is that we are animals. We are sexually, you know, we have sexual energy and there’s so much shame about that. We try to avoid that. There’s so many issues around that. But it’s like if you can move those all out the way and learn to be be the truth of you in your sexual energy.

Then for me, you’re on the right track. Then you’re, you’re on the start of this spiritual journey of tantra.  That’s wow. That’s said really, really wonderfully. And  what’s coming up for me is like people might probably ask, dear listener, you might probably ask, okay, you know, where,  how do I put this into practice? 

And I always say that You need three things in your life and this this is actually not not unique to Tantra or to what we teach You will find this in in all Spiritual traditions and I call it vision practice community So the first thing is a vision and and very very simplified. It would mean the vision is And it’s actually a vision that, that I personally feel I, you know, we have embodied, we, we, we have carried this because we have experienced what, what, what, what, what this path can do.

The vision is to really know  that you can be your full potential and you can realize this in this life. You,  each one of you, no matter.  What you have experienced can be the full potential and realize that in this life That’s the vision and then we come to the practice and there are many practices and none is better than the other But for me, I just say that the tantric practice Because it engages sex has just worked Particularly well, and then and then the third thing is, you know, what I call the playground The community to try these things out with and that’s something Basically what we are trying to you know, we are trying to implement all of these three Through tantra for gay men, but this is why I always say people asking me Oh, can I learn tantra like you actually need to do it in a community with others, you know? 

Wow So ingo, let’s just summarize today. We’ve we’ve I think we’ve been talking about am I wrong as a gay man as a gay person? Or men who love men am I wrong as a gay and I think we’ve also then talked about the role of sex Sex in terms of truth and exploration and spirituality, sex as, sex as a tool of spirituality.

I would say that’s kind of been a good summary of what we’ve talked about today. Yes, yes and all from a tantric perspective, obviously, yeah, listen let’s move on to the topic before we end so this is going out on monday the 1st of july. That means two days ago We started our ashram and this is a way for you, dear listeners, to practice Tantra with me and Ingo and a beautiful community.

I’m guessing because we’re recording this earlier, there’ll be about 40 of us as a community actively practicing Tantra. And between now and the middle of October, we are exploring becoming multi orgasmic and also spiritual dimensions of that, you know, spiritual dimensions or spiritual practice as, as, as part of that topic. 

And the most important thing is. that it’s online. That means this this format is especially for you if you live in an area. Yes. Most of the U. S. for example where you, you can’t easily access our in person, yes. In, in person retreats. So this is actually the community, the playground, and, and, and  this ashram is our Way to to put this online to put this bring this into the online world and also it gives you the chance to  Kind of be students of me and Ingo.

Yeah, and we’ll hold you in spiritual inquiry and And in practice review and you’ll get video and audio lectures each week. And also our team of Ashram facilitators, they’re going to lead practice sessions. And then also towards the end, I’m happy to announce Will Tantra. And he is going to be doing a masterclass about becoming multi orgasmic.

And that’s all rolled into your monthly fee.  So listen, if you want to join us, you can join us at any time. But as I said, between now and the middle of October, we are going to be practicing becoming multi orgasmic. How do I join the ashram? Well, hang on a minute. You’re going to learn a whole bunch of techniques, practices, and also we’re kind of taking care.

We’re kind of bringing your spiritual self, your ashram. Into that process as well. So it’s not just the techniques, but it’s the spiritual inquiry sessions where you’re able to make sense of that, able to integrate and interpret that into your day-to-Day life.  Inga, you said, where the Yeah. Tantra for Gay Men website.

Exactly. Or you can join the ASAM directly, community Tantra for gay men. Number four, gay men.com. community.  tantra4gaymane. com  We’re going to be back next time, episode 11, with a whole new topic. And yeah, we look forward to seeing you there. Ingo, thank you for today. That’s been a really rich conversation.

Thank you, my darling. I love these conversations with you. I really hope it’s helped you and served you, dear listeners. And yeah, look forward to seeing you in episode 11.  Hello there, so that brings our episode 10 to a close. I really hope you’ve enjoyed all of today’s discussion and that it has served you greatly.

If you want to join the ashram, you can do that community. tantra4gaymen. com and Ingo and I look forward to welcoming you. See you in episode 11 and lots of love. Take care till then. Bye bye.

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